Marriages can be saved when one spouse is a narcissist or emotionally abusive, according to David Hawkins, Ph.D. A narcissist is typically manipulative, self-centered, difficult to feel connected to, and may be verbally aggressive or abusive. Being married to a narcissist can result in low self-esteem, diminished healthy connections with others, restricted access to resources needed to leave the relationship, and emotional disconnection.
To save your marriage to a narcissist, you need to keep yourself safe and make efforts to force your partner to put themselves in your shoes. This can be done by repeating condescending statements back to them in a nice way.
Pretending your narcissist is also important, as it helps the narcissistic spouse take themselves out of the situation and make room for someone other than themselves. Counseling, either together or separately (or both), can help you with the decision-making process. Research published in 2020 revealed the most frequently given reasons for divorce from a sample of more than 2,000 people, which were lack of love/intimacy, communication issues, and lack of sympathy/respect/trust.
A narcissist can never be alone, and they are lazy except for their own needs. While ideally, your narcissist partner will be in therapy, most narcissists never get treatment. A woman who knows who she is can survive a narcissistic husband, as narcissists prey upon vulnerable people.
In conclusion, marriages to a narcissist or emotionally abusive spouse can be saved through knowledge, self-reflection, and self-awareness. It is crucial for both partners to show commitment to each other and seek support to navigate the challenges of a narcissistic relationship.
📹 Can you make it work with a narcissist?
DISCLAIMER: THIS INFORMATION IS FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY AND IS NOT INTENDED TO BE A SUBSTITUTE …
Can I save a marriage with a narcissist?
A marriage to a narcissist can work, according to BetterHelp. But it won’t be easy. Here are three ways to save your marriage to a narcissist. 1. Make your partner see things your way. When he makes a condescending statement, repeat it back to him. If he says, “Why can’t you be more like _____?” She cooks well for her husband. Ask your husband, “What if I said to you, ‘Why can’t you be more like…?'” He provides better for his wife. Your partner might realize how much those words hurt. We often say things without thinking about how they affect others.
Can a marriage survive with a narcissist?
Being married to a narcissist is hard. If your narcissistic spouse is willing to get help, you can still have a good marriage. If they won’t get help, you can leave the marriage to find peace and heal.
This article was originally published on July 10, 2020, and updated on November 21, 2022.
When should you end a marriage with a narcissist?
This can cause partners to become narcissistic. Don’t tolerate emotional, physical, or sexual abuse. It’s grounds for leaving a relationship. How Narcissists Act in Relationships When to Leave a Narcissist Tips for Breaking Up What Happens After a Breakup Conclusion Additional Resources Infographics Dr. Jordan specializes in attachment-based therapy, psychodynamic psychotherapy, and interpersonal neurobiology. She’s an educator and consultant. Kristen Fuller, MD, is a doctor with experience in adult, adolescent, and OB/GYN medicine. She focuses on mood disorders, eating disorders, substance use disorders, and reducing the stigma of mental health.
How long can a narcissist stay married?
A narcissistic relationship can last as long as you want. Some people stay in these relationships for years, while others leave more quickly. What does a narcissist do at the end of a relationship? A narcissist’s behavior at the end of a relationship can be complex and depends on their personality, circumstances, and goals. At the end of a relationship, narcissists tend to react with anger or try to get their ex back.
Do narcissists feel guilt?
When a narcissist feels guilt, it’s usually about what they might have lost, not about hurting someone else, says Dr. Little. One day, a narcissist is rude to their gym buddy, and the buddy stops wanting to spend time with them. Instead of feeling guilty for hurting the other person, they might feel guilty for not having a spotter. Ficken adds: They may feel shame when they fail to meet their standards or when they are seen as imperfect. What this means for you. Everyone with NPD is different. It’s impossible to generalize. NPD doesn’t stop a person from crying or feeling emotions. Their well-being is just as important as anyone else’s.
Can a narcissist stay faithful in a marriage?
A narcissist is unlikely to be faithful. A narcissist puts themselves first and needs a lot of attention to feel good about themselves.
- Can a narcissist be faithful?
- Reasons a Narcissist Is Unfaithful
- Can a narcissist truly love someone?
- Can a narcissist ever change?
- How do I know when a narcissist is cheating?
Pursuing a relationship with a narcissist can be difficult, especially if youre worried about infidelity occurring further down the line. Is it possible to have a secure relationship with a narcissist, or is unfaithfulness inevitable? This article answers all your questions about narcissists.
This article is based on an interview with Jay Reid, LPCC. Read the full interview here.
Can a narcissist fall in love permanently?
Can a narcissist love forever? Narcissists can’t love forever because they’re selfish and don’t care about others. They may form attachments, but they’re often based on how the relationship serves their needs and sense of self-importance.
Is anyone happily married to a narcissist?
Can a narcissist have a happy marriage? The answer is usually no. The photos and their public behavior show one thing, while something less appealing is going on behind the scenes. Some people with narcissistic personality disorder seem to be happy in their marriages. They post pictures of them laughing, walking, and renewing their vows. Should we believe the pictures? Can a narcissist have a happy marriage? The answer is almost always no. The photos and the couple’s public behavior show one thing, while something less appealing is going on behind the scenes. Once the courtship is over, all the relationships where one person has a narcissistic personality disorder include abuse and tension. Not all people with narcissistic personality disorder are alike. Each couple will have their own form of misery. However, this misery follows a pattern. Narcissistic partners fight over small things, insult their spouses, and are controlling. They say and do hurtful things. Some happy couples have a narcissist spouse who is physically abusing them and covering the bruises with makeup. Even if nothing bad is going on, most narcissists ignore their spouse’s requests and forget promises they made that are no longer convenient.
Is it possible to live with a narcissist and be happy?
Living with a narcissist can be hard, but you can stay well with strong boundaries, a good support network, and a therapist who knows about narcissism. You can also join a NAMI family support group in your area. Living with someone who has narcissistic traits is challenging. We asked a bestselling author and expert on narcissism for tips. We all want to put our needs first sometimes. This helps us keep our confidence and celebrate our achievements. But with narcissism, it’s different. Living with someone who has narcissistic behaviors can be distressing.
📹 Narcissistic Relationships | 5 Strategies
If you have a relationship with a narcissist, here are 5 crucial ways to manage it. Want to get Dr. Ramani’s advice directly?
Even when you give it your all to support them and walk on eggshells, they are triangulating behind your back and that can be cheating or just lying about you to their friends and family to get supply. Never assume that your life with them is okay just because there’s a period of time where you aren’t fighting. Some kind of scheming is always going on on the side.
Also to add to it … I made myself confident, became immune to gas lighting, I don’t give in to his manipulation I made myself Rock solid so he can’t shake me. I don’t show my emotional side to him. If I have to cry I cry when I am alone but the only side he will ever see is the confident, unshakeable lady he turned me into. If there is one thing I can give my marriage credit to it will be what a strong woman it made me into. It’s just a matter of finding that silver lining
I chose structured indifference for an 8 year period while our children were still going to school instead of leaving and trying to make it in a 2-household relationship…I was a stay-at-home mom with no income to contribute…him supporting 2 households wasn’t feasible…but I took it one step further….I separated from him within the house….I renovated a ground floor room and moved out of the bedroom…I felt guilt over this only in the fact that I feared how this would affect my children’s perception of a healthy relationship…but we weren’t fighting, there was no outright animosity…we just ignored each other…not ideal I know…but it was the best option at the time…once the kids were in their final semesters of college, I moved out and began divorce procedures…I have no regrets…
I’m married to a narcissist male and I leave the room when he starts in. No discussion or cross words. He gets the message and apologizes. I accept and we go on. He never acts like a narcissist in public, only at home, so I’m able to go to another room. It’s not a perfect solution but it helps send a message to him. When their audience is gone, they are left speechless. It’s inconvenient but I’d rather get up and leave than listen to him.
I’m door #3!!! I choose not to leave right now due to finances and don’t want to lose my childhood home my Grandparents built. I have become a gray rock. I now longer look to him for validation cause NOW I know he’ll never give it to me. I walk away from everything from him and wear my noise cancelling headphones a lot while I watch what I want and never have to listen to his uninvited opinions about what I’m perusal. I am no longer his supply. I am all about me now. Someday I will move on. But theres things I chooses not to walk away from so I learn from Dr Ramani how to manage living with this 6 yr old. I just see him as my whacky roommate.
You just described my 30+ year marriage, I capitulated for half and was indifferent for the other. It worked for me because it felt comfortable having grown up the child of a single bipolar alcoholic mother. When I learned about codependency and NPD and began choosing myself and having boundaries the marriage ended. Not before he met someone else and used that relationship to triangulate and punish me for choosing myself however. We are over two years divorced now. I’m single and finally feeling solid ground under my feet. He still tries to topple me but I’m strong now. It’s been a rough journey but the road is smoother now. Thank you for your work. My life literally is so much more peaceful because of it. 🥰
“Trying to draw water from an empty well can break a person’s spirit”… that’s exactly where I’m at. 20 years now and I’ve prayed and prayed, I’ve sacrificed and apologized and changed, I’ve cried expecting him to understand how he’s hurting me if I just say this or that or realize the things I’ve done wrong in the relationship and correct them and try to reconnect… absolutely nothing. No change in him at all. He’s still lying and talking to people behind my back, he’s still turning people against me and pretending I’m making a big deal out of him taking prescription bipolar meds when he’s actually on non-prescription drugs that are definitely affecting his thoughts and decisions. He’s still calling me names and sending screenshots of what I say to other women so they can mock me and my efforts, and he’s still rolling his eyes and huffing every time I bring up how he’s hurting me and the kids. It’s absolutely devastating. But I had a revelation the other day. When I got married, I became one with him in every way. I gave every part of my life to him and meshed all facets of my being with him, like I’m supposed to. We dated for 6 yrs, and have been marred for 13.5 now (separated for 13 months). I could never understand WHY he didn’t feel this insane heartbreak that I feel about being separated. But it’s because he didn’t merge every part of him like I did when we got married. There was always a part of him that he kept separate from me-what’s behind the mask. So while I feel like my whole being is ripped in two because I put everything in, he doesn’t feel that same pain because he has a whole part of himself that isn’t being ripped in two.
Ultimately Don’t allow them to change who you are, once you know what you’re dealing with, you realise it’s never going to be a proper give and take relationship, it’s a survival relationship, superficial and fire walling – They really are very sad unfulfilled people, shame really as they end up pushing true wonderful relationships with great people away 😢
I made it work like Andy did in Shawshank Redemption. My nboss lost his mind when covid changed the work world. By the time I realized he was continually getting worse I was sick with burnout and chronic fatigue. I knew I couldn’t get another job while I was sick. So I got a therapist and worked on getting better. I gave my work self a pretend name. I acted for 18 months, got better and quit. So yah, like a captive waiting for the day that I was able to escape. 2 months later I’m happy now. His lip quivered when I resigned. Bye!
“My key wisdom on Narcissistic abuse for what it’s worth is that its not a pathway where your mind magically gets clear about what has happened to you nor is it a spotless mind healing. There is no way you just forget about it all. Recovery often means turning into a direction that may seem a little more cynical or guarded or more careful which actually is fine. Recovery also takes a long time and in some ways it’s an ongoing and lifelong process. You can’t just be careful or have good boundaries for a year. To recover means making lifelong shifts”. ─ DOCTOR RAMANI 👏😊 😊👏😊👏😊👏😊👏😊👏😊
Option 4 takes me back to the most useful, meaningful piece of advice that I was given after walking away from my narc. I had lunch with a good friend of mine, and she asked me, “what would you have to be to make a relationship with that person work? And are you willing to be that way, long-term?” Answering that question was a revelation. To be with that narc, I’d have to completely give up on myself. I’d have to allow myself to be manipulated and gaslit, and lower my head and take all the blame when she was having one of her rage tantrums. I’d have to always let her have her way, and constantly flood her with undeserved admiration and praise, while getting no support or positivity back from her. I’d have to meekly beg for attention when she was stonewalling me, lie to others about her behavior to protect her, and sever ties with other loved ones to devote myself to serving her. I’d have to be a ghost, a shell of myself. Was I willing to do that? Hell, no.
I could not leave. Or my children would have had time alone with my husband and his family. If I stayed and did the best I could at least I was always there to buffer and protect. I just never felt I had a choice. But did I do the right thing? I did for myself. I had to live with it. I’ll never know.🤷🏼♀️ Sure was rough though.
I managed to navigate from door 2 to door 3 with a ton of radical acceptance and managed expectation… and stayed for around 6 months in door 3. Today I finally managed to get out of it completely! Still feel shocked and full in the grieving process and the breakup was really hard, but it’s a victory I want to share!
In summary- it can works if you accept that you are in abusive relationship and become ok with accepting abuse. But here’s the problem- whether you accept abuse or remain in denial about it- the negative effects on you are the same. The negative effects on your children are the same. There is no way to block the effects of psychological abuse except to get away from it
“We assume that another adult in a relationship is NOT an INFANT who needs our attention 24/7 – the problem is that doesn’t really work for the narcissist.” ─ DOCTOR RAMANI 🌺 👏😊 delivered this zinger in her daily article on narcissistic supply – so helpful for anyone who may have been in a narcissistic or emotionally abusive relationship – highly recommend her website! 👏😊 😊👏😊👏😊👏😊👏😊👏😊
It’s inspiring to read all these comments. Finding out my husband is a narcissist & that there was a name for what I’m going through, narcissistic abuse, was the biggest light bulb moment of my life. I have many regrets but realize that at 17 coming from an abusive & alcoholic family, I was the perfect victim. After 33 years of marriage, it’s a roommate situation. As as learn how to not let him push my buttons, he finds new ones to push. I found a great psychologist who truly understood. He understood why I’m still here, it’s complicated with religious & financial reasons. He understood that I now need to make the best of my situation. Making it “work” has been a white knuckle, roller-coaster ride with a blindfold on. I’m on a different journey now thanks to my dr & articles like these. There’s no way to sugar coat it, you can stay in a relationship with a narcissist but you will lose yourself, your very identity & the dignity that every human being has a right to.
Option 3 has worked for me in that I’ve defined my own life beyond the relationship. I’m busy with my friends and activities. Happy? Not in the relationship. I’m happy and content with who I am and what I do. I don’t need him. That being said, I really liked this article in that it describes my life. The difficulty I have is the comments and questions I get from others. Now I have an answer or I don’t have to answer at all. So thanks-again.
I had to get out. He was never going to change. I looked into my future and I saw two possible outcomes: Me in prison for a burning bed reaction OR me locked up in mental institution for being the crazy one and having a complete breakdown Or his manipulation would put me there. I figured it would likely be the mental institution before anything else. I wanted to live. I felt staying would suck for me and the children, and that leaving would also hurt the children, but that they would see a more alive mother. And I was right. It wasn’t easy because I had to do essentially no, or minimal, contact for my own safety/sanity. He had already manipulated a law meant to help women against me, and I could not allow any hooks at all. It hurt, because he tried to gaslight me through the children. I was the bad, uncooperative one, the one who refused to get along, the one with the problems, the one who just couldn’t receive his love. It took many years, but over time my adult children have said things to me that let me know they see some of what he was and why I couldn’t live with it. But the healing for them is still a big work. So this is my long-winded answer to your opening question. LOL! My thought at the end of the article is this: Knowledge (seeing your situation clearly) is power, even if you have to stay. BTW, my current (good) husband and I both listen to your articles, as both of us have histories connected to narcissists. We discuss them often. Thanks again for things to ponder in self-examination.
I couldn’t. It almost killed me more than once. And the narcissist made my children think they were responsible for my failing health. I cannot survive when I am not authentic. I was able to do Grey rock as a means to get real and get my shit together but not long term. I just can’t do indifference. I need to thrive, be open and honest. And feel that’s what I’m getting in return. I do not judge what anyone decides to do. If it works for them or they feel they need to do something else, I can’t speak to that. I am only speaking for what I needed to do for me. I would rather be homeless or live in my car than be with a narcissist asking me to perpetuate their fantasy filled alternative reality.
Be the person who breaks the cycle. If you were judged, choose understanding. If you were rejected, choose acceptance. If you were shamed, choose compassion. Be the person you needed when you were hurting, not the person who hurt you. Vow to be better than what broke you—to heal instead of becoming bitter so you can act from your heart, not your pain. ✍️ 👏😊 😊👏😊👏😊👏😊👏😊👏😊
It’s impossible to have a logical conversation about real issues most of the time, especially if he doesn’t want to. He won’t answer direct questions. So nothing ever goes anywhere. So… I haven’t had success with depth or intimacy with these kind of people. Even if they are seemingly harmless, there’s just no moving forward, so it’s either settle… or cut and run… or don’t have him in your life as a “go to” person.
This is so unreal to me, this is how im living right now. 10 years he feels his needs only matter . He only gives attention and effection to strangers . I caught him talking to other women and i was in tears all day he never apologized or hugged me or anything. Listening to this has made me aware thank you.
I opted to go radical no contact with my malignant/grandiose narc. The gaslighting, ghosting, deregulated behavior, blame-shifting, lies, frequent, unprovoked and sudden narc rages were too much. The toll on my self-esteem and sense of self-worth and happiness was too great. I prefer to be a hermit living on the side of a mountain than to ever again be involved with another narc. I don’t think that anyone should ever opt to “making it work with a narc.”
I’m door # 3, dreadful, structured indifference. It feels terrible!! After a lifetime of a narrsistic parent, i realize I missed the red flags in finding a spousal relationship, almost 20 years, that wasn’t narrsistic. I only learned about narrsistic abuse about 4 years ago. My life feels unreal, disoriented, stressed. I long for the day when I’m free from the toxicity that is my life. I thank you immensely for tour help & guidance on surviving narrsism. Uuugghhhh!
Exactly, you’re shamed for trying to have a normal marriage relationship. So, you leave them alone and they complain that your cold. It’s totally unbelievable and emotionally abusive. Then they ask, what’s wrong with you ! You have to give up your needs, hopes, desires and dreams to be with a narcissist. While they go about their life like you’re nothing to them. They force you to leave them even though you didn’t want to. But, you realize you need to and have to.
I want to Thank you for this article. I’ve listened to alot of Psychological articles, a article like this one, l think everyone that deals with a Narcissist, should hear, because most articles on the internet are so harsh, these people concentrate on the negative points 😢 of a Narcissist, rather then to inform themselves on ‘how to work with a Narcissist’. Thank you again on your view on ‘how to work with Narcissist’.
Im not in a narc relationship but I was, and I have seen it time and time again. You can make it work, if you kiss up to the narc and are okay being tossed aside every now and then, triangulated to with their friends co-workers and lovers. Then sure, it can work. I watched one wife chase after her narc husband on their vacation. He ditched her for the pool and hot women while she was left with ALL their heavy luggage at reception. She had to literally chase him down like a child running away from their mom to make him help, which he didn’t want to. I later saw him in the bar, sans wife, and he was like “Ughhh marriage, am I right? Soooo stressful.” Like HE was the one stressed and inconvenienced.
I’m such a mess I’ve stayed too long, wasted years mourning my life. Now I can’t see my way out. I’m concerned about my health, high long term anti depressants are hard on your brain. Trying to get off and stay off. Navigating the dark thoughts is a daily trial, I’ve been with him 23 years, married 20 he’ll be 80 in April. I backed myself into a corner. Took on his debt. He has destroyed our life. Please pray for me. I need god to take him home🕯️
Passive aggressive, aggressive, gaslighting, bullying, cult-like family of origin, Never going deep into any issue, volatility, physical and verbal abuse, mediocrity’s mindset, control through deep credit debt. Why did I research on this for 16 years and never found an answer? I had to be falsely accused by him, go through hell, research for 2 years with fear of retaliation when I asked this year for a divorce, being denied of traveling to see my family, destroyed my name with lies. I finally know of this psychiatric disorder through you. Thanks for the education.
Thank you for sharing your expertise..I have been with my husband for 25 yrs and married for 23 ..we have three beautiful and amazing children who are grown now our youngest is 18. With that being said I didn’t know the name of what I was dealing with til our oldest was in college taking psychology and when they were talking about traits and different things she came home and told me how he checks all these boxes and I started to search it up and all that and to be honest I was shocked and at the same time feeling all sorts of ways like how could I have not known before ..I knew there were things there from the beginning but I thought it’s just him being an a**hole…in the good times I would forget about the bad ..I wanted to keep the family together because my dad had passed away when I was 9 and I wanted my children to grow up with both parents something I didn’t have..my mom was an amazing mom and did great with me and my brothers being a widow and she never remarried either. There is so much more to my relationship so much has happened I could go on…I am great full to have found your articles as I’m trying to learn and process things and figure things out..thank you so much🥰
Nothing ever works with narcissistic people – they are out to torture you and make your life miserable. Life on the other side is much better. Get support, make a safety plan, plan in silence, and GO. The peace you get once you get over the grief is SO worth it. Get your life back ❤ it hurts but staying hurts worse. Especially if you have children.
Hi Doctor Ramani! I just wanted to let you know you changed my life. On January 30, I found your article “how to spot a narcissistic parent”, and my world shifted. On February 22, my long distance boyfriend of 4 years, got on a plane, and came to get me. We packed up my apartment, loaded up a uhaul trailer, and I moved clear across the country to start my life with him. I have not spoken to either of my narcissistic parents since, and I have never felt like life is so real. I spent 29 years living in my parents delusions, being their scapegoat, being lifted up and torn down over and over, and believing there was something wrong with me. My life revolved around my parents, and somehow nothing I did was ever good enough. To add insult to injury, my mom is an alcoholic. I ran their business, making me completely intertwined in their life all day everyday, and they never had a nice thing to say about anyone. My dad is wealthy, boisterous, apathetic, and loves to be impressive. He would let me do all of the work and then come to the event to steal the show, taking all of the credit. My mom is a “victim”, and only showers me with love and gifts once she has torn me down into submission. I was chronically depressed, and I have adhd, anxiety, and was diagnosed with misophonia at the age of 20. I kept asking them for help, but they don’t believe in mental health issues. They used my misophonia as a tool to torture me, and demonstrate that I was the problem my whole life. I will never forgive them.
OMG, Dr. Ramani, you nailed it… I’m inside door number three for 33 years. Structured indifference. “EXPECT VERY LITTLE AND HAVE RADICAL ACCEPTANCE”…. At least I don’t get sucked into a one sided conversation. Her listening to me talking like she cares while she falls asleep in the chair. Thanks for giving ‘me’ more tools to help me regulate my emotions. I told myself to not expect anything from her just this past week. And this talk validates my experience. I spent years in counseling because I thought the problem centered on me.
I’m in the process of giving up my (our) children and and grandchildren. My only love/life lines. I can’t be around them anymore because I can’t be consistent and I am always worried about what I’m saying. I’ve started hiding out when I’m around them. I refuse to be unhealthy when I’m around. It’s a slow death he provides along with the roof over my head and food in my belly. Made my choice. Won’t/can’t leave. I feel like a coward.
I’ve been perusal dr. Ramani’s articles for a while now. And I see a lot of narcissistic traits in my spouse. We have been together for 9 years. But he is overall taking care of me and our 3 children. And we have good days a lot. He doesn’t talk about me behind my back. Just I think good things. He praises me a lot and says how proud he is of me and how much he loves me. At the same time I feel like walking on egg shells with him. Because some little thing like kids spilling water can cause a disproportionate reaction of yelling at them and blaming them. He is a poor listener. And the blaming part is huge. He blames kids all the time for their behaviors and sometimes passive aggressively blames me for poor parenting, for disciplining them enough. He doesn’t blame me openly, because I have built rather strong boundaries how I will not be talked to and treated. And my emotions (when I say something he did hurt me) is a problem for him. Usually I turn out to be the super sensitive one and dwelling on things in his opinion 😢 It makes me feel awful, because I feel like I can’t share too many concerns of mine with him… Also he easily criticises people… Reads and listens to negative news all the time. And always tells me a bunch of bad news every day even though I asked him not to. Because it overwhelms me… I am really afraid he is a narcissist… but I still have hope that I am just overreacting. It does feel like I am trying to find approach to him… and minimize negativity, criticizm and yelling at kids.
I have been married for 20 years with a vulnerable narcissist and I became extremely dependent on him. I recently found out that I am autistic and probably that is the main reason I can’t be independent despite his constant invalidation and manipulation. I am unhappy, but I feel I am unable to function in society anymore. Could you please make a article about this kind of relationship (covert narcissist man with autistic woman)? I really need to understand the dynamics and figure out how I can survive because feel I am dying. Thank you for your articles x
Living in the midst of narcissistic family members, I’ve learned if I want the best for all (myself first,) I have to be gentle but firm, and that the desire to set straight only results in backlash. Acrimonious conflict is oxygen to the narcissist because it’s an opportunity to convince themselves and others they are a/ the hero, and every hero needs a villain, and their villain is those who are either least or most aware of their narcissism.
I tried #4 with my ex because I was young and stupid and selfless and decided I want him to be happy. Goal changes if I ever happened to meet previous goals flawlessly, still accusing me of cheating on him even after I stopped talking to anyone apart from him (never even thought of cheating in the first place), bringing up mistakes from 5+ years prior or things I said before we dated to prove I’m a bad person, calling me names over minor things like implying I’m stupid for laughing at a bad joke, etc. In the end he dumped me, claiming he can never trust or love a woman again because of what “I did to him” (not be a perfect robot I guess). Months later, my brother saw him with a new girlfriend. It’s not worth it.
Im on a binge right now going through your articles and with every single one i can relate but this article really spoke to me. Im leaving after christmas, i have two young children so i don’t want to traumatize them in any way by leaving now just before but this article solidified to me that i am 100% making the right decision in leaving this marriage in seek of a better, healthier, stable life. Thank you so much for creating this content.
Well you just hit the nail on the head. I have been with a narcissist for almost 13 years. Although I just recently have been able to label it. I don’t expect much from my partner so I am not miserable in my relationship. I also understand I won’t be super happy or in love in my relationship. I’m ok with all of that. I do have issues with his affairs and I know that there will always be more of those. I just need to except that will happen. I won’t ever except that they happen. I just need to found a ground so that when they happen I am able to deal with them. I am ok with all of this and for the most part am happy. I have learned to find the things I need in either myself or in others but not it the person I’m with. I have tried to end the relationship in the past and have never been successful in doing so. I always take him back. I also know that to end this relationship I will need to move away from him far away from him and not let him know where I’ve gone to
My first 10yrs of marriage, i thought i was insane, all the things done by my husband really makes me doubt my life. Slowly I fell into all the traps set by him … until the trial between Amber Heard & JD, I found out the term “narcissistic” which 99% matched my husband. Still staying with him for my children … but I am happier now that I put myself first & I no longer try to explain or even share anything with him anymore, I feel stronger & more secure that he doesn’t know anything.
Dr. Ramani this one is excellent and reassured me about my decision to end the relationship! I probably opened door number three to try and make it work (not knowing I was being manipulated and abused) but I got tired of it and it finally snapped, I bumped into content such as your website provides and learnt so much about abuse! I’m at peace as I’m not blaming myself anymore but it’s always annoying me that therapists (most that I spoke to) don’t get this or pretend not to! One of them is in an abuse relationship herself and walking on eggshells around the spouse but would deny it! Is there any way the world of therapists can be made aware of this, just as you’re educating the general public on this. Thanks for the good work and more power to you Maam 🙏🏻
I think this is very well laid out, thank you. The only concern I have (to add) would be talking about necessary mindfulness to the potential danger of harm in some (potentially all) cases, which means choosing #3 or $4 scenario requires some keen awareness and smarts for not becoming vulnerable to a potential catastrophe. Aside from all the emotional psychological kr-p, a narcissist can (and typically will) attack and ruin your reputation, financial stability, etc, if you even unwittingly misstep or cross them. There’s additional cost of doing business. Lovin’ your work.
I am working my way out of door 4 and into door 3. I am almost there. I still give in sometimes and get anxious when I know we aren’t agreeing on something. Thankfully, he made the decision to move to a separate bedroom for health reasons, so I now have a lot more time to myself and a lot more privacy. It does work, but it is not a satisfying relationship at all.
I feel like I’m the scapegoat / truth teller at work. I was in the thick of the discard phase when I started my job. I actually started the job with my ex, who’s family works there and who immediately started a smear campaign against me. I was learning about narcissism leading up to it and throughout and still am. Throughout that pain and suffering and overall uncomfortable situation, I’d opened up to some of who I trusted there at work. It’s a union shop and there’s a lot of people who take advantage of it, but I guess i was naive at the time and thought that pathological narcissism was more rare than it is. I’ve identified it in quite a few co-workers since and in the beginning there was one co-worker who I think had felt me seeing through his false persona and didn’t like it. Over time that got the best of him and we’ve butt heads. I quickly found out that conversations there don’t remain private either if you catch my drift. Long story short and after a few smear campaigns, I truly feel like the truth teller in the environment and am left alone more-so nowadays (which I like). I hear from time to time that people don’t like me, which is mostly fine, but there’s a lot of people who don’t know me before they don’t like me, which does get kind of frustrating. Btw, this job has the best pay and benefits in my town for those without a college degree. I know people might tell me to get a new job but it’d be tough to find anything close to the pay as well as insurance, etc. Also btw, my ex was fired within a couple of months so she isn’t influencing what’s going on nowadays
Dr. Ramani, you’re correct about there not being many men behind “Door #4”. Dr. Todd Grande addressed this in one of his articles, under husbands that are too “agreeable”, and how that is bad for a marriage. My husband was/ is one of those. He is in therapy and is doing much better, although he still needs to improve. I told him this morning, I don’t want “Mr. NIce”, I want “Mr. Honest”. I got tired of him always giving in to what I wanted, because it was easier for him and because he wanted to avoid conflict. Then he would blame me for his never getting what he wanted and I always felt that I was the selfish one. I finally caught on to this game and called him on it. We work out our differences pretty well, now, but, as I said, we still need to improve.
Yuck!… Door #4 sounds like: ‘you’re damned if You Do & damned if You Don’t’. Thank You for your articles, so those in these various dilemmas can at least know what to expect. It sucks… I’ve been a few relationships with narcissists; but escaped while I still had my sanity. Now the rest of my life, will be learning endless things about narcissist, so I can spot them ahead of time & avoid them like the plague.🤢🤮
Thank you Dr Ramani for your content. I believe I’m a narcissist and just learned that this past week (after discovering you). I’m in therapy now and with this realization, a lot of my past makes sense. My question is what can I do, from my end, to help reduce the narcissistic behaviors? I don’t want this for myself or my family. Most of the messages I’m seeing in this space seem like there’s little to no hope but I’m willing to fight to fix this.
Thank you, I really needed this understanding. I think option 3 with narcissistic parents you limit contact with is worth it for the guilt relief from the pressure of filial duty. I also struggle with the need of “mommy & daddy” as part of my life despite knowing they are toxic. Both of my parents are covert narcissists that are in the last years of their lives. After 4 years of no contact, I found out they had finally split up and the dynamics of interacting with them is very different. My tolerance to their abuse is gone and I’m armed with the knowledge that not only can i walk away at any time but that I can survive walking away. I guess you can say that when they pass I can console myself with “I tried my best” while I grieve what I never had? (…huh, does this attitude count as radical acceptance or codependency?) Sometimes, I think the idea of parents is like a drug addiction, the sad thing is that knowing your life is better without them hurts more than words can really say.
I’m still going through a divorce with small children, this far it’s been a nightmare however, I got a new job local, no more travel, I set firm boundaries, I only try and communicate on parent app . Big decisions haven’t came up yet but preparing for the future . She is still trying to control & manipulate but I’m not allowing it at least during my possession with kids . Thank you Dr Ramani . As far as us talking about the kids, not so much cause she is recording every interaction so I’m unwilling to play that game
Please Dr. Ramani talk about the health issues, physical and mental from long-term subservience. Living in an environment where you can’t be authentic, true to yourself can’t be good for your body. There is plenty of evidence of diseases for example, heart and autoimmune disease been contributed to long-term stressful/toxic environments. I think there is no option other than yourself and your children coming first.
I would love to share my idea on how you might change a narcissist. You have helped me recover from my relationship…thank you! I can’t help but try and think of a way to get to them. I have so many in my life on this self absorbed spectrum. I think the way to do it is similar to the dog whisperers technique. I already had the idea but learning about him recently really put it in perspective. An abused animal acts similar in that they are nasty and defensive. Caesar, the whisperer, confronts the animal…never loses his conviction in how he stands firm and shows the animal he’s not a threat and he persistently keeps moving closer until the animal submits. Patience is key and never changing your demeanor and never acting as a threat. He even states when the dog is in a state of panic, from growling nasty to then submissive, he can see the dogs brain going through it’s change. It’s forced to realize he means no harm. He changes these dogs personalities. It’s obviously more complicated with a human but I have tried this to some degree and it has worked. Like I said I have so many close loved ones on the spectrum so my experimenting is not done but getting the person to first have a talk and then go into them with compassionate criticism. You know this won’t go well. You have to stand firm and not defend yourself but point out every contradiction and lay it out as best you can for them to see. It does take a strong empath to do this and know what to say and how to say it. But you have to make them feel emotionally cornered because it’s undeniable eventually that they did wrong and you have shown them love and can prove your good intentions were always followed by your alignment with your thoughts, feelings and behavior.
I am learning to be more concious and see his buttons and see my reactions to it. Its getting ok. I am also from a culture that sees door4 as normal but I want to keep my sane and my own self.. just aiming for door 3. The acceptance with no hope that it will get better. Thats my best option as the only other option is door4. But I do feel slightly sad for myself when I see healthy couples. But I whole heartely wish their loving relationship stays longer ❤. Atleast someone has got it 😊 although its not me they still give hope that my daughter wont 100% end up like me, there is hope.
This makes me sad because my twins are narcissistic only 15. I tried to get help They would come out smiling with the counselor pulling me in to diagnose me. One counselor was wise enough to see through it but she said its not going to work for them. Its as if of you can’t get help for them young because ppl either don’t want to believe they are or they glorify them because of their looks. That’s how their dad is handsome, smart, & articulate. He even showed sympathy which is way different than empathy but I didn’t know that while dating. Ppl would call me a lie & say he’s too handsome & smart for that, it must be you. I thought an intelligent person who was functioning in life and was articulate equated to mentally sound. After all even in psychology the way you dress or how well you talk can mean that person is sound. Well today you better talk to your kids about the other side so they will have a chance. The lesson I would share is stop thinking you can tell a person’s mental illness by the way they look, their intellect, or how they appear to be so loyal. Research before having kids & passing that illness on. Don’t dismiss that “hummm” feeling inside.
I am so glad she tackled this! My mother-in-law said it to me once and I said it once also actually but I should NOT have! I said because I felt my kids were lost to me forever and I was losing hope but that was not true. I think Joyce Meyer would say, that was a lie sent to destroy me but thankfully it didn’t! I get to spend the rest of my life “seeing clearly” Thanks 🌺Doctor Ramani! 👏😊 😊👏😊👏😊👏😊👏😊👏😊
Oh my I am all of the above. The love bombing worked and I married him so he would not get deported and ten years later, we’re divorcing tomorrow he’s been denied his green card and he agreed so I’m not responsible for any medical needs because he has no coverage. We’re in our 60’s. The more I study this, the more I understand his personality. He’s stolen my joy. Thank you for your insight!❤
Relationship with Religious convictions. Door number 3 and 4. All I can do is lift it up to my God, and pray my spouse gets the help he needs. Thankful for my loved ones support who are starting to see what is going on. They are starting to see both sides. Firm Bounderies, Be calm and assertive, practice Self-commpassion and I am speaking Truth to myself.
My wife is narcissistic we have 3 grown up children,all have their own children. My wife does all there housework including just to be told how great she is. She has what I call ” turns” which consist of if I say why she will say black if I say left she was a right she does it just to be in control. People talk about leaving narcissists but my wife told me if I left her I would never see my grandchildren again. My grandchildren all my life my children believe every word she says because she makes a point of never belittling me or attacking me in front of them had to suffer this 40 odd years.
You know I’ve learned a LOT about this disease through life’s experiences and have FINALLY been able to look at it with a clinical eye. My mother is a narcissist and it really seems to consume their minds more and more each day. It affects every aspect of their mental, emotional, and even physical health. Unfortunately, like any “disease” it progresses & consumes everything within their environment…and like a drowning person (whether they intend to or not), they’ll pull you down with them. I genuinely have pitty on anyone who is affected with narcissism because it truly changes a normal, healthy mind into a boiling cauldron of hatred, resentment, fear and all the manifestations and combinations of those three. Although we may be victims of the collateral damage that’s caused by this insideous condition, the real victim is the person infected by it.
I could agree to door number 3 with my parents and brother. With very infrequent seeing each other (never again staying/living with them though, even for just a few days). I am no contact at the moment, but so far our relationship has oscillated between door number 4, or door number 2 if I don’t capitulate to every and each demand, or show any sign of independent thinking/need or want)
Doctor Ramani 🌺 is so amazing at what she does helping millions. I can’t believe just how thorough, detailed, & to the point she is. If you, or someone you know have dealt with a narcissist, whether it be a boss, friend, or have an antagonistic family member, or worse: a parent, then you must watch this. This may be the most important article you ever watch. 👏😊 😊👏😊👏😊👏😊👏😊👏😊
Thank you doctor 4 sharing this msg. Unfortunately.my eyes wer just Opened to narc. behavior. Talk abt self centered. prideful. stingy. no sympathy. victim mentality. aggressive thts my husband. Ur right on the muney on expressing one’s emotions. happiness. sadness. thoughts as it goes Unnoticeable with a narc. My husband is ill n its hard to leave especially when they don’t want medical care n waiting to die making me feel uncomfortable. Thank you.again!
My narcissistic sibling has been married for over 40 years. But I think it’s because their spouse is the bread winner and the narcissist has a ln image and lifestyle to maintain, so the narcissist takes care to not go too far with the spouse. The narcissist picks others to destroy, to get their supply.
I have to keep a relationship open with my narcissist ex wife when co parenting. To be honest some days are better than others. It’s clear that a majority of what she does she does for her. She’s got a new man, and he’s suffering. I strangely feel sympathy for the man. I know what he’s going through! But he jumped straight into the relationship following my split up. There must have been some overlap, as he was moved into the house 1.5 months after I’d left the home. He was full of bravado, and possibly a narc himself. The traits of narc behaviour always run along the surface when co parenting. But it’s more noticeable and easier to grey rock. Thank you for all that you do. Your knowledge undoubtedly saved my life. X
Awesome article, I have to come back and watch it again. Does this “Doors” analogy only pertain to romantic relationships: or would you advise the same rubric for all narcissistic relationships? e.g. if it’s a volatile/hostile relationship, it won’t work long-term. I’d been trying to keep up a relationship with a narc parent for financial reasons, but I don’t think I can any more. They bought me a house and I will likely lose it and all financial security for my future without them, but the relationship is simply too hostile.
I’ve been trying to make it work for 23 years, most before I knew he was a narcissist. The last year I guess I’ve been in the structured indifference. I can’t leave. I’m finally working part time after 20 years of being a stay at home mom. I only make minimum wage so I’m stuck. Maybe he’s not a narcissist because he seems fine with the kids, it’s just me. Every so often something happens to open my eyes even further and maybe one day I’ll just snap and tell him I’m done, but I don’t want to be alone and I know with how I am I will never have another relationship and that terrifies me. The other night I went to the ER because I wasn’t feeling well, I thought I was going to die. He didn’t act concerned (he never does, never shows emotion), he didn’t comfort me, hug me, tell me it was ok. But as soon as we got to the ER (my mom took us) he was all guiding me in, holding my hand, it was all for show! I’m so tired of this and part of me wishes I had been dying because I’m just so tired of life and trying to make it work with someone who doesn’t love me. My kids are honestly the only reason I’m still here. I want them growing up with love and affection and not indifference. I know he loves the kids and is always doing things for them just not me (which makes me think he’s not a narcissist at all), but he isn’t affectionate.
Best ever examples of sharing a reality with a broken human. Thank you for helping me continue to stand up for myself, although it bothers me he will be free to ruin others lives. If our choice is possible, our reality can be however we choose it to be. Any reality with a broken human will be miserable to tolerate. Instead, choose to invest in your future, nurturing your needs and your desires, don’t waste your life’s energy and happiness on someone that is guaranteed to never be pleased, respectful or appreciative.
Completely off topic, but it’s something that I’ve been noticing a lot lately. Narcissist has been becoming a hot word. I’ve been noticing a lot of narcissists gaslighting the term narcissist into the opposite of what they are. I’ve even seen some websites do this, that obviously weren’t extremely credible. Kind of eerie. 😱
Being with one is voulumtary sufferiing but it gets worse if you dont show up and help out so i show up get the work done focusing on the long run this too shall pass be supportive even if they struggle focous on what person you want to be like, stay positive and let go of the reaction you fear from the narc you got this go trhoug it learn and move on
Thank you for your lecture. We tried most of the options and as our son just goes off in the Silence mode, we have accepted it and try to live our lives. It is so difficult as he is our only child and now 34 years old. As a mother I long to have contact but I know it’s not the right thing to do as he will be very unpleasant and abusive. The pain is always there and I feel lost. How do you overcome this?
no .I have hide and tried for two years I don’t know which person I’m meeting it’s like three personalities. I’m feeling guilty all the time like I’ve done something wrong. Always cleaning the house. Everything is my fault I can go on and on. I’m trying to break loose from this. And it’s very difficult. Just like you said she comes on with this attitude I love you I miss you I want to be with you you’re such a nice guy. Can somebody throw some comments also. Thank you
If you are willing to sacrifice yourself, your health, friends and family (to various degrees) – sure… but you will have to fulfill every request and still take a beating for not doing enough or doing the wrong thing. Quite often the person exposed to the narc only discover the true problem after years. Perhaps too late to have the strength to end the relationship.
My daughter is recently divorced after being married to a narcissist for 11 years. They have a 2 year old daughter. Do you have advice for her dealing with her ex while trying to coparent. He refuses to potty train, I believe it’s because it wasn’t his idea. She listens to your podcasts and articles on YouTube. I can not praise you enough for the help you have given her. Thank you for sharing!!
I always thought I didn’t have a warm relationship with my mother because of her narcissistic mother that she always prioritied. And also because my mother was busy taking care of her terminally ill husband. Now that he’s gone and my grandmother near the end I still don’t get better time with my mother. I realized she’s narcissistic too and she’s instead taking over her mother’s persona. I feel so cheated and heartbroken. What have I been waiting for for over 40 years?!
Hi Dr. Ramani, I’ve watched all of your articles over the last couple of years as I’ve dealt with my fair share of narcissistic abusers. I’m commenting on this article in particular because I’m trying to give resources to a loved one who is married to someone with “Peter Pan Syndrome”. He doesn’t do most of the typical narcissistic abuser things, but he’s the type who doesn’t want to grow up and have responsibilities. Very selfish and immature. When faced with things like the need to keep the house clean for their baby, he complains that she is too demanding and things don’t need to be spotless, which obviously they don’t, but this argument is designed to get her off his back and take care of it all herself. He leaves her high and dry with the baby when he wants to be home doing his own thing. I know she deserves a lot more than that and would like to possibly see a article about how to deal with this. Nobody deserves to be their mate’s “mommy”.
I waited my entire life to marry, I said no to marriage proposals afraid to marry the wrong person. And somehow I ended up marrying a very narcissistic man. I feel like such a fool, all the signs were there. I waited for so long and ended up marrying the worst prospect. The only reasoning I can come up with for not being able to see the signs. May be, because I was a verbally and physically abused orphan. Looking back now I see all the signs. But somehow I let him convince me to marry him. Now I have our 9 month old and I feel so trapped.
Structured indifference is how I’d call my situation with my roommate. Everything is one sided even if she said the day before she can give equally, she does not. And i become the bad guy if i ask for it. I can’t even ask how to bob and weave around her needs and wants to take time to give myself my own without her being the victim.
He checks 95% of the narcissist boxes. I have definitely been toxic but far from a narcissist. I’ve been in weekly therapy for years and I’m NON-toxic now. He has been in daily alcoholic use therapy. If he would change I would be 90% on board, otherwise it’s time to split. I just pray for God to intervene whatever the outcome.😢
Thank you for speaking on this topic. Disabled individuals often have no choice but to stay in unsafe relationships, and even our own therapists won’t give this life saving advice. Sadly, they’re lessons we learn the hard way after years of experience but don’t realise we also need to give up hope. That’s genuinely helpful.
I kind of thought I might could do this. I knew that the relationship wouldn’t ever be ideal or maybe even good, but have good moments and that the alternative was to lose my best friend, so I let him come back. Then he started an argument out of nothing so he could be free to go out by himself for the weekend. If he doesn’t find someone new over the weekend, he will want to come back again. I’m done this time though. He messed up big time. He should have made sure that I wasn’t sober. He said I was drunk, I wasn’t. He must have thought I had drank a lot more than I had. I had also eaten and was drinking water. This wasn’t the first time he has done this. Start an argument then try to make it all my fault by taking what I say and literally flipping it upside down so he has an excuse to get angry. I tried everything to stop the argument and say that I didn’t mean it the way he was taking it, but it was obvious that he was doing it on purpose. So I said I was done this time. He probably doesn’t understand that I really mean it. I don’t even want to be friends anymore. I cried for about a minute. Now I don’t feel anything. What love or caring there was, he killed. It’s gone and won’t ever come back. It’s odd. I was in so much pain last time, but I hope I’m not just in some kind of delayed reaction phase, but I don’t thinks, I really think I’m ok. Maybe I just don’t miss my friend yet?
I don’t want to make it work. But I’m currently trapped by my niece’s narcissistic relationship. So I have learned to avoid the annoying 6 year old ego in a 57 year old body as much as possible. This week I couldn’t. He had been bragging about making Scotched eggs himself, after I mentioned making Scotch eggs this weekend. He wouldn’t get off it. So I made them. He was so excited. His face when he realized Scotch is not in the recipe was worth the effort. It’s the little things that lighten this idiocy.
You will have to give up your whole life and not willing to be who you are and losing yourself to be controlled and abused. Giving up yourself to be not yourself is becoming an emotional slave. You will never be who you want to be. It’s a ongoing WAR that you will be fighting forever. Until death does you a part (torn apart). It’s not worth it losing your mental state and emotional state. As I’m currently going through this and mAking my way out of this silently because I want MY POWER BACK!!!! Looking towards taking care of my kids without being in this mad house of chaos. I can’t live like this at all. It took so long for me to figure this out and now that I know it’s time to go with peace and joy that’s need absolutely!!!!!!
A good narcissist will be aware of all these things and just flip them all on their partner. Most of the characteristics can be applied to EVERYONE at moments in their life. In my experience, people with mental illnesses study these things and spend a lot of time convincing themselves that it’s the OTHER person. These kind of articles give them the ammo they need to rally people to their side. The victim is usually the last to understand what’s going on.
The husband opening door n.4 will also play the narcissistic game along with the narcissistic wife towards a third party they want to torment. He will side with her although he himself is not narcissistic, but out of utter love he will keep quiet, say nothing to her to defend himself AND side with his narcissistic wife when she attacks someone.
I’m an American man.. and have seen that in the US, men are ONLY considered to be good men.. if they are self sacrificing and don’t expect absolutely anything at all in return. In the US it’s absolutely cultural. We are taught that being a head of house.. macho.. manly.. in pursuit of your own goals while married.. is an egotistical thing to do.. and only bad men do those things. Almost ALL women have some narcissistic traits now as a result
Mam, I’m eternally grateful to you, I’ve opened my eyes after perusal your articles to understand why I Was suffering always in the relationship even though I was trying my best to be his dream person…Now i understand… Can you please help us with another question…when they are trying to contact you to Hoover you…But I don’t want to face his rage when I speak against his accusations like you never truly fought for me or like this ..when they are the one who has discarded devalued broken me from my soul ..how do I tacle that …?? Your help is much appreciated as Always …🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
I have to challenge you on the high conflict being worse than the structured indifference. I was raised with high conflict and went on to have high conflict but long term relationships, so at least I did experience some of the good things a partnership can offer. I have a friend who has a family with more of the structured indifference and has no idea that anything is wrong. He developed a fetishistic disorder quite young and mid 40s has never had a proper relationship. Is that better? To never experience any affection or partnership? Both are bad and high conflict is hideously awful, but the consequences from unhealthy families are all terrible.
my husband during his rages beats himself on doors, walls, the coffee table, hits himself. and then ask me to save him. hes 42 and cries hysticial like a 4 year old girl throwing a tantrum. our 5 and 4 year old are starting to watch everything he’s doing. if i stay and take all your advice is there anyway my kids wont grow totally screwed up